Delvers Boss/Finale

[Antistone]

Well, we're getting pretty close to the off-the-top-of-my-head target number of levels, and also close to the end of summer vacation for a lot of people.

Do people feel like there should be something special for the very last level in Delvers, and if so, what?

I think it could be fun to have some sort of "climax" level. Changing genres at the last minute seems like a bad idea, so I'd want to still keep a "puzzle" feel, rather than suddenly switching to, say, a tactical game. But the puzzle could maybe have more of an adversarial feel, like there was something playing against you, and maybe a little more time pressure than most of the other levels

Requiring lots of teamwork and communication seems like an apt idea. Also, it should build on the things the players have learned in the earlier levels, to make the players feel like they've gained some mastery, but maybe apply them in new (logical) ways. And I think the players should have to use some technique in that they didn't have to use in any other level; a new twist of some kind.

Any other thoughts, feelings, or ideas?


Also, let me remind everyone that 20 levels is a goal, not a limit, so don't feel like you can't contribute just because we're getting close. However, development time may be starting to run short, so if you'd like to do something, you should probably do it soon.

[Sabertooth_X]

I think a cool, in-depth scripted boss level would be pretty kickass.
In the way of like (I know this is a horrible example), you turn on a generator to zap the evil being's tentacle, forcing that tentacle underground. I really haven't been testing up to date or attempting a serious submission since around the second part of the mapathon, so I can't use real examples. =/

And I'd remember to be on to help test, to boot!
I'm seriously sorry about missing so much, really.

[Dragonheart91]

Sounds fun, I liked the boss fight against the necromancer thing.

The boss could be moving around attempting to kill you, and disrupt your plans. You have to avoid and/or dodge in order to complete the puzzle that lets you wound him in some way. Rinse and repeat with variations to defeat the boss. It could be kind of like the towers that shoot slow projectiles, in the method that you can dodge but it keeps the pressure on. Proper timing could also be an issue, if he moves around and dodges your "attacks", then you might need to time it correctly or lead him to the right spot.

[Shvegait]

I think it would be GREAT if the boss could interact with puzzle objects like the players can. And the boss tries to undo what you've done. In this sense there is a time pressure, but you never actually lose (assuming it is impossible to get stuck). And perhaps you actually need to trick the boss into cooperating with you (e.g. make it step on buttons). Sort of like QS's abomination level, I guess, but more intricate.

Now, how to implement that is another question, but I just wanted to throw that idea out there.

I do think it is crucial that the boss's behavior be deterministic, and not random.

[Antistone]

Most of the puzzle elements don't have clear forwards/backwards directions and such...I'm not sure what it would mean for the boss to "undo" your work when you're using orbs of passage, sunstones, words of shadow, etc. Even in cases where there's an apparent reverse-action, like for using a key of balance or moving a conduit, the boss would presumably need to take the item from you to reverse the effect, and there's not currently any mechanic for "stealing" an item in someone else's possession (though one could presumably be created), which prompts the question "once he's got the item you need, why wouldn't he just keep it?"

Right at the moment, I'm leaning more towards the boss creating obstacles for you to overcome--like, throwing out smoke walls and fire walls and gates and stuff that you have to get past. If you get stuck, the boss just taunts you or something, so you don't get further and further behind, but in order to accomplish something you'd need to get past one obstacle quickly enough to accomplish something before he sets up the next one. And maybe you need to perform secondary tasks to temporarily slow or stop the boss (which would be an easy way to make teamwork a factor).

As for random behavior, I think you mean that his behavior should be generally predictable. It's easy to create deterministic systems that are as good as random for purposes of a game (in fact, "random" outputs in war3 actually are deterministic), and I don't think it's a problem if there's a little random variation within recognizable patterns (for example, if the boss has 3 attacks, then I don't think using them in order is necessarily better than switching at random).

[Shvegait]

As for random behavior, I think you mean that his behavior should be generally predictable. It's easy to create deterministic systems that are as good as random for purposes of a game (in fact, "random" outputs in war3 actually are deterministic), and I don't think it's a problem if there's a little random variation within recognizable patterns (for example, if the boss has 3 attacks, then I don't think using them in order is necessarily better than switching at random).

No, I mean predictable in a very precise sense, not "generally". I don't mean predetermined patterns. Based on the situation, the players should be able to predict, once they figure out the boss's behavior, with 100% certainty what the boss will do. This makes it possible to beat the boss as a puzzle.

[Antistone]

Hm. Well, that would seem to rule out a few options--for example, that would seem to preclude having the boss "flee" from the players, unless he moves on a rigid and coarse grid or something, since even a simple rule like "move directly away from the closest player" is likely to produce results that are irreproducible in their details, even if the algorithm is technically deterministic, because it will be sensitive to small changes in player input.

And I disagree with the implication that a puzzle with a little nondeterminism ceases to be a puzzle. And it seems like a little nondeterminism would go a long way in making the boss feel like an adversary, rather than a force of nature.

But I also kind of see your point...

I guess I was thinking a little along the lines of a boss from Zelda or maybe Shadow of the Colossus, where the strategy is formulaic but you have to react to a few variable details, whereas you seem to be thinking more along the lines of Zack and Wiki, where the bosses are fundamentally the same as the rest of the puzzles, just with different presentation.

[Dragonheart91]

I got a few ideas from reading this topic.

What I am envisioning now, is a level where you and the boss are both moving around in a rather compartmentalized level. The boss would have all of the same abilities as you, but probably be tinted black. The objective of this level for you, will be to force the boss into a specific area. You will do this by "capturing" him, using the compartmentalized level, and then devising how to "lead" him to the area he does not want to enter. It would require new mechanics to create interesting ways to keep the boss from escaping, and/or motivate him to go where he doesn't want to. (I think it should be quite smart, and know when it needs to kill itself in order to use the spirit world to escape, or knows when it is being lead into an obvious trap and doesn't walk in there stupidly. It should need to be forced in by something it is required to do.)

The boss of course is not just going to sit by and let this happen. He is actively going about his objective while avoiding your traps and tricks. This will definitely be a battle of out-thinking him. He will have a specific pattern of responses to certain actions and situations, but it won't be obvious at first. You must keep him from completing his objective, and lead him into a trap that he cannot avoid. Having proper strategy and timing to use all 4 of your people against him should be necessary. There are 4 sides on a specific room, and 4 of you. I think using your numbers against him to defeat him should be one of the answers to the puzzle.

This should in my opinion, be the only level that you can "lose." If the boss completes his objective before you capture him, you lose and must restart the level. He should be slow about his task in the beginning, and only get truly skilled at it later on as he gets used to your defense. That way, you won't get stomped immediately because you don't know what to do. I would also assume you can undo what he is attempting, but it would require more planning and strategy.

It would be like a game of cat and mouse, creating walls and obstacles in both worlds in real time in an attempt to stop each other. You have the advantage of numbers, but he knows the level inside-out and exactly how to escape from you and/or create walls that block you so that he can do his objective unobstructed. I do not think it should ever be possible for you to occupy the same area as the boss at the same time, and I think you should have vision of him at all times so that you don't "lose" him.

[Antistone]

Making the boss sluggish for a set time seems problematic, since we have to expect people will play the level more than once (especially if it's possible to lose). Might make more sense to have multiple "phases" of the boss, transitioning when players accomplish intermediate goals, with different boss behavior in each phase.

Doing a little brainstorming for possible mechanics...

Soul Gem - If a delver (or boss) dies within a short distance of this gem, his spirit becomes trapped in the gem, rather than traveling to the spirit world. Only one delver can be trapped in each gem. Another player can pick up the gem and use it to release a trapped spirit, and the gem can then trap a new spirit.

Waters of Life - Vial of mystic water that revives spirits in an area around where it is used. After being used, it turns into an empty vial, which must be refilled at a fountain (or something). The waters of life cannot be contained in the spirit world, and so putting them into a shifter or carrying them through a conduit causes them to be used immediately.

So the players can attempt to trap the boss in the soul gem, which is tricky because it will get temporarily "used up" if the boss manages to kill one of them (within range) first, and because the boss can try to hide in the spirit world, where he can't be "killed." But players can use the waters of life to force him back into the living world to try and trap him.

And this has the advantage that both of those are interesting and useful items in their own right that could feature in their own puzzles, so they can be introduced before the boss. (Soul gem allows someone to die in one place and be released in another, giving access to new locations in the spirit world, and the waters of life can be used to revive people in locations where no rift or necromancer is present.)

Any thoughts?

[Sabertooth_X]

While all that is cool, I just think the idea of the boss being throughout the whole level would be awesome. Even maybe something like actually ENTERING the boss and doing some puzzle aspect to hurt it, could be really, really cool as opposed to just another item quirk that makes a BOSS seem less than that. If the level is a boss level, it should focus on the boss the whole time. Distractions will pull away from the epicness.

[Dragonheart91]

If your going with my suggestion Antistone, then yeah your two items are exactly the type of thing needed to make it possible. The bosses objective would be to trap all of the plays in those gems, (Or maybe just a single gem if it can trap more than one person.) and the players objective would be to trap him. I would say base the level around that. Beating the level would be having him trapped in a gem and using that gem as a key to a gate. You could then have a second level of boss fight with a different style if you wished, and that could be the more battle oriented boss if you feel that is needed. (The gem could "break" before they can properly find a way to destroy him.) This also raises the questions: Why were they in this weird world? What was their objective while there? Why did this boss have malicious intent towards them? I think a story might be in order at the end. (Maybe a few story touches earlier on to explain how or why they are there as well.)

[Antistone]

While all that is cool, I just think the idea of the boss being throughout the whole level would be awesome. Even maybe something like actually ENTERING the boss and doing some puzzle aspect to hurt it, could be really, really cool as opposed to just another item quirk that makes a BOSS seem less than that. If the level is a boss level, it should focus on the boss the whole time. Distractions will pull away from the epicness.

I was imagining they'd be introduced in a prior level, so that when you see them and an evil guy at the same time in the final level, you know what to do with them.

I like the idea of the boss level requiring players to apply lots of stuff that they've learned in previous levels. Would you think it was better if the mechanics needed to defeat the boss were totally new, never-before-seen stuff that the players had to master mid-fight?

If your going with my suggestion Antistone, then yeah your two items are exactly the type of thing needed to make it possible. The bosses objective would be to trap all of the plays in those gems, (Or maybe just a single gem if it can trap more than one person.) and the players objective would be to trap him. I would say base the level around that. Beating the level would be having him trapped in a gem and using that gem as a key to a gate. You could then have a second level of boss fight with a different style if you wished, and that could be the more battle oriented boss if you feel that is needed. (The gem could "break" before they can properly find a way to destroy him.)

I'm not entirely sure I'm behind the idea of making the level "losable." It seems kind of out-of-character for the map, given that the map's premise is that death is a tool.

As for the conclusion, I'm imagining that the boss is the one keeping the delvers stuck in the dungeon--if he's maintaining a magical barrier or something, then the simple act of trapping him could itself open the way out. Making the gem behave as a key could be difficult to convey to the players, since it would be a new mechanic.

Alternately, if we wanted some additional step after trapping the boss, it could be a method of forcing him into a new area where they can then proceed to...whatever.

This also raises the questions: Why were they in this weird world? What was their objective while there? Why did this boss have malicious intent towards them? I think a story might be in order at the end. (Maybe a few story touches earlier on to explain how or why they are there as well.)

Well, this appears on the first level:

Poor souls!

I, the dungeon master, have trapped you in a labyrinthine crucible in which you must use your wit and skill to escape!

Reach me, and I might just let you go...

The gate in front of you will open in 10 seconds. Use your guile to traverse the myriad levels of the dungeon and escape!

I copied this over from demo level 1 before it was torched, so this was actually part of the original map concept. It's not a whole lot of story, but it suggests that the players have been kidnapped for some Big Bad Evil Guy's personal amusement, which I think is a reasonable premise. And of course he's not really just going to let them go, because BBEGs are treacherous like that.

It might be worth going through the start-of-level messages to add more flavor text and give them a "dungeon master's voice" feel, since a lot of them are currently written for the benefit of testers, judges, and co-developers rather than to enhance the final play experience (a trend that I started and accept full blame for).

[Dragonheart91]

I agree that having a way to lose is kind of out of character for the game, but that is the only way to add tension. Anything else is just another slow puzzle that you have to work out. If you want real tension against an opponent who is seemingly having malicious will against you, I feel you are going to need a way to lose. At very least, the "boss" should be attempting to hinder you during the level, killing or reviving the players at in-opportune times. I feel the final level should give a sense that you are fighting an intelligent entity, and that you have a true opponent. Not just another puzzle to be solved.